Sunday 9 January 2011

The Filmgoer's Guide to Conan the Barbarian (1982): Cimmerian Mythology


Fire and wind come from the sky, from the gods of the sky, but Crom is your god. Crom, and he lives in the earth. Once giants lived in the earth, Conan, and in the darkness of chaos, they fooled Crom, and they took from him the enigma of steel. Crom was angered, and the earth shook, and fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters. But in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield, and we who found it. We are just men, not gods, not giants, just men. And the secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan, you must learn its discipline, for no one, no one in this world can you trust, not men, not women, not beasts... This you can trust.
It's all very nice and evocative, but aside from the name Crom, absolutely nothing comes from Robert E. Howard. Indeed, much of Cimmerian theology and philosophy in the film is entire the creation of Oliver Stone and John Milius, with many divergences from what we know from Howard.

Creation Myths


There are three stories which delve into Cimmerian mythology, from which we can divine an idea of what the Cimmerians believed:
“Their gods are Crom and his dark race, who rule over a sunless place of everlasting mist, which is the world of the dead."
- "The Phoenix on the Sword," The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, p24

While Crom was chief of Conan's gods, and by far the one he swore by most often, Crom was not the only deity in the Cimmerian pantheon.  The other Cimmerian gods and goddesses we know of are Badb, Morrigan, Macha, Nemain, Diancecht and Dagda, as written in a list of Cimmerian deities' names in Howard's notes. In "Xuthal of the Dusk," Conan swears "Lir and Mannanan Mac Lir," who may also be Cimmerian gods. Just as Howard's Cimmerian is described in very similar terms to his Irish and Scottish heroes, there's little reason to doubt that the Cimmerian gods are much different from their later Irish incarnations. It's interesting to note that almost half of the Cimmerian pantheon consists of women, which reflects their egalitarian attitude towards gender.

What of the giants? We do know some of the creatures of Cimmerian folklore:

Conan listened attentively. The natural skepticism of the sophisticated man was not his. His mythology contained ghouls, goblins, and necromancers.
 - "Iron Shadows in the Moon," The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, p193

Conan glared at him unspeaking, feeling a chill along his spine. Wizards and sorcerers abounded in his barbaric mythology, and any fool could tell that this was no common man.
 - "The Hour of the Dragon," The Bloody Crown of Conan, p105

Conan did not press the matter, nor did he look incredulous. His beliefs included night fiends, ghosts, hobgoblins and dwarfs.
 - "Untitled Fragment," The Bloody Crown of Conan, p308

"The soldiers, who do not believe in ghosts or devils," he said, "are almost in a panic of fear.
You, who believe in ghosts, ghouls, goblins, and all manner of uncanny things, do not seem to fear any of the things in which you believe."
 - "Beyond the Black River," The Conquering Sword of Conan, p60

Ghouls, goblins, necromancers, wizards, sorcerers, night fiends, ghosts, hobgoblins, dwarfs and ghosts - but no giants. The closest approximations would appear to be the Ice-Giants of the Nordheimer:

"She lures men from stricken fields into the wastelands to be slain by her brothers, the ice-giants, who lay men’s red hearts smoking on Ymir’s board. The Cimmerian has seen Atali, the frost-giant’s daughter!"
 - "The Frost-Giant's Daughter," The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, p45

However, there is no interlap between the Cimmerians and Nordheimer, for the two peoples consider their religions distinct:

"By Ymir -"
"Who are you to swear by Ymir?" she mocked. "What know you of the gods of ice and snow, you who have come up from the south to adventure among an alien people?"
"By the dark gods of my own race!" he cried in anger.
- "The Frost-Giant's Daughter," The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, p40

This is extremely important when discussing another aspect of the film's Cimmerian mythology, as well as the cultural makeup of the Cimmerians themselves.

So, there is no evidence for giants in Cimmerian mythology in Robert E. Howard's universe. There is nothing in the stories which mentions any creation myth for the Cimmerians, let alone the one put forward in the films. Finally, the Enigma and Riddle of Steel: there is none, nor anything like it, in Cimmerian folklore or culture.

Cimmerian Afterlife


Conan: What gods do you pray to?
Subotai: I pray to the four winds... and you?
Conan: To Crom... but I seldom pray to him, he doesn't listen.
Subotai: What good is he then? Ah, it's just as I've always said.
Conan: He is strong! If I die, I have to go before him, and he will ask me, "What is the riddle of steel?" If I don't know it, he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me. That's Crom, strong on his mountain!
Subotai: Ah, my god is greater.
Conan: Crom laughs at your four winds. Laughs from his mountain!
Subotai: My god is stronger. He is the everlasting sky! Your god lives underneath him.

While the film rightly has Crom dwelling atop his mountain, we hear the shocking admission from Conan that he prays to Crom, albeit as a seldom occurence (though given his later prayer opens with Conan saying he has never prayed to Crom before, Conan may simply be lying to Subotai).  This is in direct opposition to one of the few tenets of Cimmerian religion in the stories:

His gods were simple and understandable; Crom was their chief, and he lived on a great mountain, whence he sent forth dooms and death. It was useless to call on Crom, because he was a gloomy, savage god, and he hated weaklings. But he gave a man courage at birth, and the will and might to kill his enemies, which, in the Cimmerian’s mind, was all any god should be expected to do.
 - "The Tower of the Elephant," The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, p70

Milius' Crom appears to be open to challenges from strong men, and even invites prayer: very different from Howard's Conan, who considers anyone calling upon him to be a weakling.  Furthermore, the film's Crom appears to have a jovial and hearty side, laughing as he casts the unworthy from his vaulted halls, even at foreign deities!  In Howard's stories, Crom is described as "grim," "loveless," "gloomy," "savage," "dark" - never any indication of mirth or joy.

The Cimmerian afterlife appears somewhat similar to that of the Norse, with reference to Valhalla, a quintessentially Norse element, virtually inextricable from Odin, Asgard, Ragnarok and so forth. We have a description of Cimmerian afterlife in the original stories:

“But what of the worlds beyond the river of death?” she persisted.
“There is no hope here or hereafter in the cult of my people,” answered Conan. “In this world men struggle and suffer vainly, finding pleasure only in the bright madness of battle; dying, their souls enter a gray misty realm of clouds and icy winds, to wander cheerlessly throughout eternity.”
 - "Queen of the Black Coast," The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, p131

Doesn't sound much like Valhalla to me. If there was any further doubt, Valhalla does appear in the Hyborian Age, as the final destination of the Nordheimer - who, as discussed above, have a separate mythology from the Cimmerians.

"Not in Vanaheim," growled the black-haired warrior, "but in Valhalla will you tell your brothers that you met Conan of Cimmeria."
 - "The Frost-Giant's Daughter," The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, p39

I seek not beyond death. It may be the blackness averred by the Nemedian skeptics, or Crom’s realm of ice and cloud, or the snowy plains and vaulted halls of the Nordheimer’s Valhalla. I know not, nor do I care.
 - "Queen of the Black Coast," The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, p131

Crom may dwell on a mountain, but he does not live in Valhalla.  Conan does profess that he prefers the way of the Æsir to that of his own people, but this is more a preference to their lifestyle and general demeanour than their religion:

"What manner of men are these northern folk?" asked Prospero.
"Tall and fair and blue-eyed. Their god is Ymir, the frost-giant, and each tribe has its own king. They are wayward and fierce. They fight all day and drink ale and roar their wild songs all night."
"Then I think you are like them," laughed Prospero. "You laugh greatly, drink deep and bellow good songs; though I never saw another Cimmerian who drank aught but water, or who ever laughed, or ever sang save to chant dismal dirges."
"Perhaps it’s the land they live in," answered the king. "A gloomier land never was – all of hills, darkly wooded, under skies nearly always gray, with winds moaning drearily down the
valleys."
"Little wonder men grow moody there," quoth Prospero with a shrug of his shoulders, thinking of the smiling sun-washed plains and blue lazy rivers of Poitain, Aquilonia’s southernmost
province.
"They have no hope here or hereafter," answered Conan. "Their gods are Crom and his dark race, who rule over a sunless place of everlasting mist, which is the world of the dead. Mitra!
The ways of the Æsir were more to my liking."
 - "The Phoenix on the Sword," The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, p24

A final consideration is cinematic's Conan's off-handed dismissal of Subotai's deities, which is very unlike the more respectful - or rather, cautious - Cimmerian of Howard's stories:

"Conan, do you fear the gods?"
"I would not tread on their shadow," answered the barbarian conservatively. "Some gods are strong to harm, others, to aid; at least so say their priests. Mitra of the Hyborians must be a strong god, because his people have builded their cities over the world. But even the Hyborians fear Set. And Bel, god of thieves, is a good god. When I was a thief in Zamora I learned of him."
- "Queen of the Black Coast," The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, p131

Here, we see that although Conan does not consider Mitra, Set, Bel, or any of the other gods to be his gods, he nonetheless gives them a certain amount of respect. Robert E. Howard's Conan has seen too much sorcery and magic in his life to mock the gods in such a way, though that should not be mistaken for deference or fear: simple pragmatism.  Little use in challenging a god when you have nothing to gain.

Conan's respect to other religions - at least those which do not involve the invocation of demons and other evil rites - is a fixture throughout his life, even into his kingship:

Persecution caused the followers of Asura to hide their temples with cunning art, and to veil their rituals in obscurity; and this secrecy, in turn, evoked more monstrous suspicions and tales of evil.
But Conan’s was the broad tolerance of the barbarian, and he had refused to persecute the followers of Asura or to allow the people to do so on no better evidence than was presented against them, rumors and accusations that could not be proven. "If they are black magicians," he had said, "how will they suffer you to harry them? If they are not, there is no evil in them. Crom’s devils! Let men worship what gods they will."
- "The Hour of the Dragon," The Bloody Crown of Conan, p151-152

Conan, while not necessarily worshipping other gods, shows broad tolerance towards the faiths of others. As long as they do not practise human sacrifice, black magic or darkest deviltry, Conan believes men should be free to worship what gods they will.

Conan's Faith


Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that two stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Crom... so grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to hell with you!

A wonderful moment in the film, the film is less a prayer than it is a demand. The film's Conan has undergone incredible hardship from an early age: his parents murdered before his eyes; his people and home destroyed; put into slavery; set to push a wheel for decades; forced into fighting for his life in gladiatorial combat; torture, beatings, and witnessing the death of his only love. Yet somehow, Conan remembers his father's words, and he remembers Crom. Faced with such struggles, it would be easy for Conan to forsake Crom, but even through all this, Conan still believes in Crom. Just as Job was faithful to God after all his sufferings, so to did Conan keep his belief: unlike Job, however, Conan was only willing to take so much. Finally, Conan makes his first prayer to Crom, and it's as much an open challenge as it is a request.

Robert E. Howard's Conan has endured many hardships of his own, though not of the same sort as his cinematic counterpart: capture by Hyperboreans; wandering the cities of the Hyborian kingdoms as a penniless, starving youth; the basic struggle to survive in the harsh wilderness. Yet not in any of the Conan stories did Conan pray to Crom, nor could he:

“What of your own gods? I have never heard you call on them.”
“Their chief is Crom. He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune! He is grim and loveless, but at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man’s soul. What else shall men ask of the gods?”
 - "Queen of the Black Coast," The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, p131

Howard's Crom is that most unusual of gods: the one that actively rejects his people's worship, prayer and devotion, and rather expects his people to be entirely self-sufficient. Robert E. Howard's Conan would never pray to Robert E. Howard's Crom, for the simple reason that Crom has already given the essential gift to every human at birth: the courage, will and power to survive.  That was all Crom would give his people, and that's all his people would ask.

16 comments:

  1. The only reason I'm not commenting on this posts is because I have nothing to say about. Great job ;)

    PD: In spain would be impossible an article like this. There is SO MANY "Millius' Conan" and "Savage sword" fans with no interest at all on the work of Robert E. Howard...

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  2. Cheers, Kike! A shame Spain's not as interested in Howard as it should be, I can only sympathise.

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  3. Excellent post on the subject.

    Is Conan's belief in Crom really so, what's the word, resentful? I guess not resentful but does he really not expect anything of the God whatsoever?

    I know he remarks a number of times that Crom offers nothing to man beyond strength at birth, but do his exclamations of "Crom!" whenever he encounters something truly unexpected (just about every story) not indicate some sort of belief in hope (just as a Christian crossing themselves when faced with similar circumstances) that the god is attentive?

    I'm not suggesting that Crom would actually aid a man (if he existed at all), but I feel that, despite what Conan says, he - and likely others who follow Crom - at least see the god as watching over him and, perhaps when he's not entirely focused on his religion, does seek out the aid or at least the comfort of his deity.

    Of course, he also exclaims the names of other gods, so perhaps it's just a habit.

    - Aaron

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  4. Is Conan's belief in Crom really so, what's the word, resentful? I guess not resentful but does he really not expect anything of the God whatsoever?

    I don't think it's resentment, just a more unusual outlook on theology. Cimmerians seem to view the gods like ants might perceive humans: great, vast, inscrutable, but not a good idea to invite their attention. They're not there to be worshipped, they're just *there*, as surely as the mountains and trees are.

    Colourful analogy of the week: Crom is a great Cimmerian bull, and Cimmerians are maggots infesting his flesh. Crom is an entity almost inconceivable to maggots, whose lives depend upon the sustenance they get from his flesh. Crom gives the maggots life, true, but you don't want to call his attention to you, or he'll pluck you out and squish you.

    It isn't just Conan, but the Cimmerians themselves. The Cimmerians are quite a bit like Scottish/Irish Presbyterians, in that they're incredibly dour, dark, bleak and grim.

    I know he remarks a number of times that Crom offers nothing to man beyond strength at birth, but do his exclamations of "Crom!" whenever he encounters something truly unexpected (just about every story) not indicate some sort of belief in hope (just as a Christian crossing themselves when faced with similar circumstances) that the god is attentive?

    I'd say it's closer to the more secular exclamation "God!" than crossing one's self: blaspheming as a form of swearing, rather than a true invocation.

    I'm not suggesting that Crom would actually aid a man (if he existed at all), but I feel that, despite what Conan says, he - and likely others who follow Crom - at least see the god as watching over him and, perhaps when he's not entirely focused on his religion, does seek out the aid or at least the comfort of his deity.

    I think the Cimmerians are a proud race, and view Crom as similarly proud. Think about it: if your gift to humanity was to give them self-sufficiency, strength, courage and power, then for your children to pray to you for assistance is implying that that gift was insufficient. That wouldn't sit well with them. "What, the power to strive and slay wasn't enough for you? Just for that, I'm going to smite you with pox!"

    Even hoping for Crom to be watching over them gives the impression of insecurity, second-guessing, or the belief that Crom's gift wasn't enough. It's like a son wanting his father to say he's proud of him, only for the father to be offended that his son would have to ask.

    It's something I, as a Scot, can easily sympathise with. I know my grandfather's proud of me, but I don't need to have to say as such.

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  5. Good post!
    Just one thing Id like to bring up. True to Conans nature (of adapting to where he is, as well as to his gigantic mirt nature), I think he might have picked up on the more cheerful Valhalla theme in favor of the gloomy end of the Crom beliver.
    Dont he express a notion that he is more like the burly northeners than the gloomy cimmerians in "the Phoenix and the sword"?

    To expand on your own qoute (no offence intended):

    [Prospero, after hearing Conans desription of Cimmeria]"Little wonder men grow moody there" [...]
    "They have no hope here or hereafter" Answered Conan. "Their gods are Crom and his dark race, who rule over a sunless place of everlasting mist, which is the world of the dead."
    "Mitra! the vays of the Aesir were more to my liking."

    Also good to note that king Conan talks about the Cimmerians and the ones who believe in Crom as others, its "their belief", Althoug this might just be his royal act and dedication to his kingly duty.

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  6. Just one thing Id like to bring up. True to Conans nature (of adapting to where he is, as well as to his gigantic mirt nature), I think he might have picked up on the more cheerful Valhalla theme in favor of the gloomy end of the Crom beliver.

    Very good point, Fredrik, and I don't know why I forgot to mention that. However, even though he professed to like the ways of the Aesir better, it didn't mean he decided to mush Aesir and Cimmerian mythology together.

    Also good to note that king Conan talks about the Cimmerians and the ones who believe in Crom as others, its "their belief", Althoug this might just be his royal act and dedication to his kingly duty.

    Another good one. It could well be his sense of duty, but it squares well with his theological musings in QotBC.

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  7. I suppose that idea works - that of Crom being the main entity and the Cimmerians his inhabitants - but I find it hard to accept that a race that believes so vehemently in the supernatural (as is mentioned numerous times in the stories) would accept a god that offers so little.

    Obviously that sort of thing wouldn't have been in the forefront of Howard's mind as he wrote the stories though, and I doubt he'd expect anyone decades later to be so concerned about it.

    I think as well that in a world that was so obviously magical with gods that - at least in some cases - are actual beings interacting with mortals (as in the case of Set and whatnot) - one wouldn't be so inclined to use the name of a god - particularly one as apparently spiteful as Crom - as a curse word, but who knows what a Cimmerian would consider a curse?

    I suppose there is no right answer in regards to how Crom would truly have been viewed, nor even if he existed in that world or was actually a god at all (perhaps he, and Howard's other gods, were like the deities of Lovecraft and not actually gods at all), but it is an interesting concept.

    Do you think that Cimmerian pride would really trump a mortal man - even if he was as powerful as Conan - having to face down the monsters he did and not calling out for some divine intervention?

    That may well be the case were he fighting fellow men, but a dragon, or a demon, or even a powerful sorcerer - I think that might be a little out of the ordinary even for a race so accustomed to war and perhaps might make one rethink allowing what they would consider a god sitting on the back burner.

    - Aaron

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  8. Kike, I suggest you to go to the asociacion española de espada y brujeria forums or the pulp forums in dreamers to found readers of the works of Robert E Howard, although we haven't clearly a Patrice Louinet, Al Harron, Rusty Burke... by the way La biblioteca del laberinto is publishing a more or less completed works of REH
    cimmerians remind me of the basque people, no sun, mullets... who identify thmeselve with the republican irish, Poitain with the sun and the oranges remind me of Valencia, the levantines and Zingara even more than medieval Castilla reminds me Andalucia, Kordava,Cordoba, and in the comics Janissa is from a city called Gadir, Cadiz
    Francisco

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  9. I am going to really stretch this for a second to maybe attempt to see where milius is coming from though,in an attempt to answer what this myth conans dad is telling his son has to do with howard .here goes: " giants lived in the earth, Conan, and in the darkness of chaos, they fooled Crom, and they took from him the enigma of steel. Crom was angered, and the earth shook, and fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters. But in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield, and we who found it."-This is the most important part of dad's story here and it suggests to this: The first part being how cimmerians may mythologize this great cataclysm( some sort of war of the gods that shook the earth) and how over time cimmerians re-evolved to the point of weapon and tool making,) which if I remember was how it is told in the hyborian age essay.( interpreted in milius's myth as after this 'cataclysm 'or god and giant conflict which wrecked the earth fire brimstone whatever, cimmerians fought their way back up the (evolutionary)ladder and "found the secret of steel")This is what i suspect ( dont wanna commit for sure i just thought of this recently)is going on with this speech, conans dad is speaking of the cataclysm before the hyborian age began and the reevolution of the cimmerian people through his mythstory.I suppose it does tie in with his own riddle as it does take tremendous willpower to come back from the brink under those circumstances the cimmerians faced, as the riddle of steel is about the power of the human will (or mind) and how it took a strong mind and will to break thulsa doom, not just steel or the 'hand that wields it'. I dunno just a thought, and a stretch of a thought at that.-Mario

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  10. I suppose that idea works - that of Crom being the main entity and the Cimmerians his inhabitants - but I find it hard to accept that a race that believes so vehemently in the supernatural (as is mentioned numerous times in the stories) would accept a god that offers so little.

    I don't know if the Cimmerians necessarily *believe* in the supernatural. After all, the Hyborian Age is a time where the supernatural is very much in evidence. Their beliefs in ghouls, ghosts, goblins and whatnot may well be based on first-hand encounters. Not sure if that means Crom's real or not, just that the Cimmerians view him as they view a mountain, tree or cloud: it's there.

    Do you think that Cimmerian pride would really trump a mortal man - even if he was as powerful as Conan - having to face down the monsters he did and not calling out for some divine intervention?

    Divine intervention, according to the Cimmerians, that would be more likely to damn the Cimmerian than the deity. And, frankly, yes, I do think Conan's pride overrides his common sense in such matters.

    Kike, I suggest you to go to the asociacion española de espada y brujeria forums or the pulp forums in dreamers to found readers of the works of Robert E Howard, although we haven't clearly a Patrice Louinet, Al Harron, Rusty Burke...

    I'm deeply flattered to be associated with those two giants of Howardom, though I certainly don't measure up.

    I am going to really stretch this for a second to maybe attempt to see where milius is coming from though,in an attempt to answer what this myth conans dad is telling his son has to do with howard

    Mario, that's a very cool theory! I don't think it's enough to make me consider the mythology Howardian, but it's a really admirable attempt at reconciliation nonetheless.

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  11. this treatment of mythology in the film reminds me of the Titanomaquia and the myth of Prometeus
    jejeje... Al you're the next generation of Howard scholars
    in Spain Javier Martin Lalanda is the more similar to a Howard scholar that we have, heh has a lot of knowledge and passion for the genre but he isn't, his works I mean, as interesting as could be Al, Brian Murphy or the people in BG
    other one is Manuel Barrero but he is more oriented to comic books
    Francisco

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  12. Lol like i said Al , it was a big stretch even I'm not convinced Milius intended that( one of those things where if he read my idea he'd say" um yeah sure thats exactly what inspired me,") but it was a fun thought.a lot of myth has some sort of historical root, and it's one of the few things that I could think of and it's not even drawn from a conan story specifically but an essay . My question really is do Howard and Milius though employing different approaches, come to the same conclusion? Howard ( and I admit I am only formulating these ideas this certainly is not written in stone nor am i trying to sway opinion) appears to let history do the talking( though still philosopical) and Milius seems interested in the philosophies( and seems to interpret howards age as pre historic) that create these histories and myths so to speak. -mario

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  13. Aha! This explains it all. My hubris be damned!

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  14. Since you've been explaining the mix of belief systems, you could also bring up the original inclusion of Hephaestus in the film somewhere. I don't think it fits under "Cimmerian mythology" though.

    If the Internet is to be trusted, he's mentioned in the lyrics to "The Kitchen", which are Latin. Of course it's an awesome piece, making the sneaking sequence incredibly atmospheric; thing is, the chant, like much of the film, has nothing in common with established lore.

    I'm reminded of the Helm's Deep chant in the Lord of the Rings cartoon, sung by a choir as well - allegedly just gibberish aside from "Isengard", "Sauron" and "Mordor". Here's the opening scene and the full "battle" piece (it's at the beginning and end). I have my issues with Jackson, but the music of his films had "real" Elvish lyrics.

    Perhaps you could mention other stuff in the lyrics that seem like inventions for the film's own mythology - like "Skee-lon, Skee-lon, Skee-lon" at the end of "Riders of Doom". Online lyrics render it "Skylon" and I've listened to a rendition where it's pronounced that way.

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  15. this treatment of mythology in the film reminds me of the Titanomaquia and the myth of Prometeus
    jejeje...


    It's definitely reminiscent of the wars of Greek mythology, though there's also correlations with Norse myth.

    Al you're the next generation of Howard scholars

    A thousand thanks, Francisco!

    Lol like i said Al , it was a big stretch even I'm not convinced Milius intended that( one of those things where if he read my idea he'd say" um yeah sure thats exactly what inspired me,") but it was a fun thought.a lot of myth has some sort of historical root, and it's one of the few things that I could think of and it's not even drawn from a conan story specifically but an essay

    Hey, that's what it's all about, isn't it? I myself had tried to reconcile CtB with Howard, but it ended up kinda weird. The thing to remember is Milius did read the Howard stories: lots of them. Whether he understood them is a different matter, but he definitely read them, so it's entirely possible that was Milius' inspiration.

    My question really is do Howard and Milius though employing different approaches, come to the same conclusion? Howard ( and I admit I am only formulating these ideas this certainly is not written in stone nor am i trying to sway opinion) appears to let history do the talking( though still philosopical) and Milius seems interested in the philosophies( and seems to interpret howards age as pre historic) that create these histories and myths so to speak. -mario

    Hmm, that's a tricky one. I'd say they have *some* of the same conclusions, though some of those could be arguable.

    Aha! This explains it all. My hubris be damned!

    Glad to be of help Steve, and thanks for dropping by!

    Since you've been explaining the mix of belief systems, you could also bring up the original inclusion of Hephaestus in the film somewhere. I don't think it fits under "Cimmerian mythology" though.

    I was planning on including the songs in a separate article, which indeed includes discussions of words like "Hephaestus," "Skee-lon" and "Nevis," as well as thoughts on the song's meanings.

    I'm reminded of the Helm's Deep chant in the Lord of the Rings cartoon, sung by a choir as well - allegedly just gibberish aside from "Isengard", "Sauron" and "Mordor". Here's the opening scene and the full "battle" piece (it's at the beginning and end). I have my issues with Jackson, but the music of his films had "real" Elvish lyrics.

    Heh, I remember that. The use of genuine Sindarin/Adunaic and constructed Khuzdul is indeed one of the coolest aspects of the film trilogy. It's the small details that the films do the very best, IMO.

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  16. combat ready trainning, ancient art's anything,the eye ;signed
    daniel gordon sparrow

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