tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post4718721254712083188..comments2024-02-20T10:12:20.623+00:00Comments on The Blog That Time Forgot: The Filmgoer's Guide to Conan the Barbarian (1982): Cimmerian MythologyTaranaichhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02176999342965850175noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post-57175761775310356622013-10-01T17:33:55.275+01:002013-10-01T17:33:55.275+01:00combat ready trainning, ancient art's anything...combat ready trainning, ancient art's anything,the eye ;signed<br />daniel gordon sparrowAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post-46492891811862793162011-01-14T17:54:55.421+00:002011-01-14T17:54:55.421+00:00this treatment of mythology in the film reminds me...<i>this treatment of mythology in the film reminds me of the Titanomaquia and the myth of Prometeus<br />jejeje... </i><br /><br />It's definitely reminiscent of the wars of Greek mythology, though there's also correlations with Norse myth.<br /><br /><i>Al you're the next generation of Howard scholars</i><br /><br />A thousand thanks, Francisco!<br /><br /><i>Lol like i said Al , it was a big stretch even I'm not convinced Milius intended that( one of those things where if he read my idea he'd say" um yeah sure thats exactly what inspired me,") but it was a fun thought.a lot of myth has some sort of historical root, and it's one of the few things that I could think of and it's not even drawn from a conan story specifically but an essay</i><br /><br />Hey, that's what it's all about, isn't it? I myself had tried to reconcile CtB with Howard, but it ended up kinda weird. The thing to remember is Milius did read the Howard stories: lots of them. Whether he understood them is a different matter, but he definitely read them, so it's entirely possible that was Milius' inspiration.<br /><br /><i>My question really is do Howard and Milius though employing different approaches, come to the same conclusion? Howard ( and I admit I am only formulating these ideas this certainly is not written in stone nor am i trying to sway opinion) appears to let history do the talking( though still philosopical) and Milius seems interested in the philosophies( and seems to interpret howards age as pre historic) that create these histories and myths so to speak. -mario </i><br /><br />Hmm, that's a tricky one. I'd say they have *some* of the same conclusions, though some of those could be arguable.<br /><br /><i> Aha! This explains it all. My hubris be damned!</i><br /><br />Glad to be of help Steve, and thanks for dropping by!<br /><br /><i>Since you've been explaining the mix of belief systems, you could also bring up the original inclusion of Hephaestus in the film somewhere. I don't think it fits under "Cimmerian mythology" though.</i><br /><br />I was planning on including the songs in a separate article, which indeed includes discussions of words like "Hephaestus," "Skee-lon" and "Nevis," as well as thoughts on the song's meanings.<br /><br /><i>I'm reminded of the Helm's Deep chant in the Lord of the Rings cartoon, sung by a choir as well - allegedly just gibberish aside from "Isengard", "Sauron" and "Mordor". Here's the opening scene and the full "battle" piece (it's at the beginning and end). I have my issues with Jackson, but the music of his films had "real" Elvish lyrics.</i><br /><br />Heh, I remember that. The use of genuine Sindarin/Adunaic and constructed Khuzdul is indeed one of the coolest aspects of the film trilogy. It's the small details that the films do the very best, IMO.Taranaichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02176999342965850175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post-9044495376246611832011-01-14T12:48:37.117+00:002011-01-14T12:48:37.117+00:00Since you've been explaining the mix of belief...Since you've been explaining the mix of belief systems, you could also bring up the original inclusion of <i>Hephaestus</i> in the film somewhere. I don't think it fits under "Cimmerian mythology" though.<br /><br />If the Internet is to be trusted, he's mentioned in <a href="http://conancompletist.forumactif.com/t1067-the-kitchen-lyrics" rel="nofollow">the lyrics to "The Kitchen"</a>, which are Latin. Of course it's an awesome piece, making the sneaking sequence incredibly atmospheric; thing is, the chant, like much of the film, has nothing in common with established lore. <br /><br />I'm reminded of the Helm's Deep chant in the Lord of the Rings cartoon, sung by a choir as well - allegedly just gibberish aside from "Isengard", "Sauron" and "Mordor". Here's <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oBvNFMt9Ic" rel="nofollow">the opening scene</a> and <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXWGZij0BLI" rel="nofollow">the full "battle" piece</a> (it's at the beginning and end). I have my issues with Jackson, but the music of his films had "real" Elvish lyrics.<br /><br />Perhaps you could mention other stuff in the lyrics that seem like inventions for the film's own mythology - like "Skee-lon, Skee-lon, Skee-lon" at the end of "Riders of Doom". Online lyrics render it "Skylon" and I've listened to a rendition where it's pronounced that way.Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05315348028756856231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post-9845810670911323042011-01-14T00:12:11.859+00:002011-01-14T00:12:11.859+00:00Aha! This explains it all. My hubris be damned!Aha! This explains it all. My hubris be damned!Steven Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14598248355848874750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post-33310283114182614462011-01-12T00:35:36.072+00:002011-01-12T00:35:36.072+00:00Lol like i said Al , it was a big stretch even I&#...Lol like i said Al , it was a big stretch even I'm not convinced Milius intended that( one of those things where if he read my idea he'd say" um yeah sure thats exactly what inspired me,") but it was a fun thought.a lot of myth has some sort of historical root, and it's one of the few things that I could think of and it's not even drawn from a conan story specifically but an essay . My question really is do Howard and Milius though employing different approaches, come to the same conclusion? Howard ( and I admit I am only formulating these ideas this certainly is not written in stone nor am i trying to sway opinion) appears to let history do the talking( though still philosopical) and Milius seems interested in the philosophies( and seems to interpret howards age as pre historic) that create these histories and myths so to speak. -marioAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post-1053906426833291032011-01-11T23:44:13.424+00:002011-01-11T23:44:13.424+00:00this treatment of mythology in the film reminds me...this treatment of mythology in the film reminds me of the Titanomaquia and the myth of Prometeus<br />jejeje... Al you're the next generation of Howard scholars<br />in Spain Javier Martin Lalanda is the more similar to a Howard scholar that we have, heh has a lot of knowledge and passion for the genre but he isn't, his works I mean, as interesting as could be Al, Brian Murphy or the people in BG<br />other one is Manuel Barrero but he is more oriented to comic books<br />FranciscoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post-41769964681174155082011-01-11T19:12:21.712+00:002011-01-11T19:12:21.712+00:00I suppose that idea works - that of Crom being the...<i>I suppose that idea works - that of Crom being the main entity and the Cimmerians his inhabitants - but I find it hard to accept that a race that believes so vehemently in the supernatural (as is mentioned numerous times in the stories) would accept a god that offers so little.</i><br /><br />I don't know if the Cimmerians necessarily *believe* in the supernatural. After all, the Hyborian Age is a time where the supernatural is very much in evidence. Their beliefs in ghouls, ghosts, goblins and whatnot may well be based on first-hand encounters. Not sure if that means Crom's real or not, just that the Cimmerians view him as they view a mountain, tree or cloud: it's there.<br /><br /><i>Do you think that Cimmerian pride would really trump a mortal man - even if he was as powerful as Conan - having to face down the monsters he did and not calling out for some divine intervention? </i><br /><br />Divine intervention, according to the Cimmerians, that would be more likely to damn the Cimmerian than the deity. And, frankly, yes, I do think Conan's pride overrides his common sense in such matters.<br /><br /><i>Kike, I suggest you to go to the asociacion española de espada y brujeria forums or the pulp forums in dreamers to found readers of the works of Robert E Howard, although we haven't clearly a Patrice Louinet, Al Harron, Rusty Burke...</i><br /><br />I'm deeply flattered to be associated with those two giants of Howardom, though I certainly don't measure up.<br /><br /><i>I am going to really stretch this for a second to maybe attempt to see where milius is coming from though,in an attempt to answer what this myth conans dad is telling his son has to do with howard</i><br /><br />Mario, that's a very cool theory! I don't think it's enough to make me consider the mythology Howardian, but it's a really admirable attempt at reconciliation nonetheless.Taranaichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02176999342965850175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post-3077563901649745582011-01-11T09:47:09.706+00:002011-01-11T09:47:09.706+00:00I am going to really stretch this for a second to ...I am going to really stretch this for a second to maybe attempt to see where milius is coming from though,in an attempt to answer what this myth conans dad is telling his son has to do with howard .here goes: " giants lived in the earth, Conan, and in the darkness of chaos, they fooled Crom, and they took from him the enigma of steel. Crom was angered, and the earth shook, and fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters. But in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield, and we who found it."-This is the most important part of dad's story here and it suggests to this: The first part being how cimmerians may mythologize this great cataclysm( some sort of war of the gods that shook the earth) and how over time cimmerians re-evolved to the point of weapon and tool making,) which if I remember was how it is told in the hyborian age essay.( interpreted in milius's myth as after this 'cataclysm 'or god and giant conflict which wrecked the earth fire brimstone whatever, cimmerians fought their way back up the (evolutionary)ladder and "found the secret of steel")This is what i suspect ( dont wanna commit for sure i just thought of this recently)is going on with this speech, conans dad is speaking of the cataclysm before the hyborian age began and the reevolution of the cimmerian people through his mythstory.I suppose it does tie in with his own riddle as it does take tremendous willpower to come back from the brink under those circumstances the cimmerians faced, as the riddle of steel is about the power of the human will (or mind) and how it took a strong mind and will to break thulsa doom, not just steel or the 'hand that wields it'. I dunno just a thought, and a stretch of a thought at that.-MarioAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post-43416059177208471302011-01-10T19:08:06.837+00:002011-01-10T19:08:06.837+00:00Kike, I suggest you to go to the asociacion españo...Kike, I suggest you to go to the asociacion española de espada y brujeria forums or the pulp forums in dreamers to found readers of the works of Robert E Howard, although we haven't clearly a Patrice Louinet, Al Harron, Rusty Burke... by the way La biblioteca del laberinto is publishing a more or less completed works of REH<br />cimmerians remind me of the basque people, no sun, mullets... who identify thmeselve with the republican irish, Poitain with the sun and the oranges remind me of Valencia, the levantines and Zingara even more than medieval Castilla reminds me Andalucia, Kordava,Cordoba, and in the comics Janissa is from a city called Gadir, Cadiz<br />FranciscoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post-17688214303325567542011-01-10T17:44:27.251+00:002011-01-10T17:44:27.251+00:00I suppose that idea works - that of Crom being the...I suppose that idea works - that of Crom being the main entity and the Cimmerians his inhabitants - but I find it hard to accept that a race that believes so vehemently in the supernatural (as is mentioned numerous times in the stories) would accept a god that offers so little.<br /><br />Obviously that sort of thing wouldn't have been in the forefront of Howard's mind as he wrote the stories though, and I doubt he'd expect anyone decades later to be so concerned about it.<br /><br />I think as well that in a world that was so obviously magical with gods that - at least in some cases - are actual beings interacting with mortals (as in the case of Set and whatnot) - one wouldn't be so inclined to use the name of a god - particularly one as apparently spiteful as Crom - as a curse word, but who knows what a Cimmerian would consider a curse?<br /><br />I suppose there is no right answer in regards to how Crom would truly have been viewed, nor even if he existed in that world or was actually a god at all (perhaps he, and Howard's other gods, were like the deities of Lovecraft and not actually gods at all), but it is an interesting concept.<br /><br />Do you think that Cimmerian pride would really trump a mortal man - even if he was as powerful as Conan - having to face down the monsters he did and not calling out for some divine intervention? <br /><br />That may well be the case were he fighting fellow men, but a dragon, or a demon, or even a powerful sorcerer - I think that might be a little out of the ordinary even for a race so accustomed to war and perhaps might make one rethink allowing what they would consider a god sitting on the back burner.<br /><br />- AaronThe Idler After Darkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13349725567379546628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post-21089742180455884102011-01-10T17:21:17.126+00:002011-01-10T17:21:17.126+00:00Just one thing Id like to bring up. True to Conans...<i>Just one thing Id like to bring up. True to Conans nature (of adapting to where he is, as well as to his gigantic mirt nature), I think he might have picked up on the more cheerful Valhalla theme in favor of the gloomy end of the Crom beliver.</i><br /><br />Very good point, Fredrik, and I don't know why I forgot to mention that. However, even though he professed to like the ways of the Aesir better, it didn't mean he decided to mush Aesir and Cimmerian mythology together.<br /><br /><i>Also good to note that king Conan talks about the Cimmerians and the ones who believe in Crom as others, its "their belief", Althoug this might just be his royal act and dedication to his kingly duty. </i><br /><br />Another good one. It could well be his sense of duty, but it squares well with his theological musings in QotBC.Taranaichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02176999342965850175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post-47393875883241627432011-01-10T17:09:39.228+00:002011-01-10T17:09:39.228+00:00Good post!
Just one thing Id like to bring up. Tru...Good post!<br />Just one thing Id like to bring up. True to Conans nature (of adapting to where he is, as well as to his gigantic mirt nature), I think he might have picked up on the more cheerful Valhalla theme in favor of the gloomy end of the Crom beliver.<br />Dont he express a notion that he is more like the burly northeners than the gloomy cimmerians in "the Phoenix and the sword"? <br /><br />To expand on your own qoute (no offence intended):<br /><br />[Prospero, after hearing Conans desription of Cimmeria]"Little wonder men grow moody there" [...]<br />"They have no hope here or hereafter" Answered Conan. "Their gods are Crom and his dark race, who rule over a sunless place of everlasting mist, which is the world of the dead." <br />"Mitra! the vays of the Aesir were more to my liking."<br /><br />Also good to note that king Conan talks about the Cimmerians and the ones who believe in Crom as others, its "their belief", Althoug this might just be his royal act and dedication to his kingly duty.Fredriknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post-73214069326466805192011-01-10T15:53:28.870+00:002011-01-10T15:53:28.870+00:00Is Conan's belief in Crom really so, what'...<i>Is Conan's belief in Crom really so, what's the word, resentful? I guess not resentful but does he really not expect anything of the God whatsoever?</i><br /><br />I don't think it's resentment, just a more unusual outlook on theology. Cimmerians seem to view the gods like ants might perceive humans: great, vast, inscrutable, but not a good idea to invite their attention. They're not there to be worshipped, they're just *there*, as surely as the mountains and trees are.<br /><br />Colourful analogy of the week: Crom is a great Cimmerian bull, and Cimmerians are maggots infesting his flesh. Crom is an entity almost inconceivable to maggots, whose lives depend upon the sustenance they get from his flesh. Crom gives the maggots life, true, but you don't want to call his attention to you, or he'll pluck you out and squish you.<br /><br />It isn't just Conan, but the Cimmerians themselves. The Cimmerians are quite a bit like Scottish/Irish Presbyterians, in that they're incredibly dour, dark, bleak and grim.<br /><br /><i>I know he remarks a number of times that Crom offers nothing to man beyond strength at birth, but do his exclamations of "Crom!" whenever he encounters something truly unexpected (just about every story) not indicate some sort of belief in hope (just as a Christian crossing themselves when faced with similar circumstances) that the god is attentive?</i><br /><br />I'd say it's closer to the more secular exclamation "God!" than crossing one's self: blaspheming as a form of swearing, rather than a true invocation.<br /><br /><i>I'm not suggesting that Crom would actually aid a man (if he existed at all), but I feel that, despite what Conan says, he - and likely others who follow Crom - at least see the god as watching over him and, perhaps when he's not entirely focused on his religion, does seek out the aid or at least the comfort of his deity.</i><br /><br />I think the Cimmerians are a proud race, and view Crom as similarly proud. Think about it: if your gift to humanity was to give them self-sufficiency, strength, courage and power, then for your children to pray to you for assistance is implying that that gift was insufficient. That wouldn't sit well with them. "What, the power to strive and slay wasn't enough for you? Just for that, I'm going to smite you with pox!"<br /><br />Even hoping for Crom to be watching over them gives the impression of insecurity, second-guessing, or the belief that Crom's gift wasn't enough. It's like a son wanting his father to say he's proud of him, only for the father to be offended that his son would have to ask.<br /><br />It's something I, as a Scot, can easily sympathise with. I know my grandfather's proud of me, but I don't need to have to say as such.Taranaichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02176999342965850175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post-11455642321492729842011-01-10T13:25:00.920+00:002011-01-10T13:25:00.920+00:00Excellent post on the subject.
Is Conan's bel...Excellent post on the subject.<br /><br />Is Conan's belief in Crom really so, what's the word, resentful? I guess not resentful but does he really not expect anything of the God whatsoever?<br /><br />I know he remarks a number of times that Crom offers nothing to man beyond strength at birth, but do his exclamations of "Crom!" whenever he encounters something truly unexpected (just about every story) not indicate some sort of belief in hope (just as a Christian crossing themselves when faced with similar circumstances) that the god is attentive?<br /><br />I'm not suggesting that Crom would actually aid a man (if he existed at all), but I feel that, despite what Conan says, he - and likely others who follow Crom - at least see the god as watching over him and, perhaps when he's not entirely focused on his religion, does seek out the aid or at least the comfort of his deity.<br /><br />Of course, he also exclaims the names of other gods, so perhaps it's just a habit.<br /><br />- AaronThe Idler After Darkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13349725567379546628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post-77107184571659843532011-01-09T19:24:02.021+00:002011-01-09T19:24:02.021+00:00Cheers, Kike! A shame Spain's not as interest...Cheers, Kike! A shame Spain's not as interested in Howard as it should be, I can only sympathise.Taranaichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02176999342965850175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7177193073415704349.post-76295518166310725362011-01-09T16:59:37.413+00:002011-01-09T16:59:37.413+00:00The only reason I'm not commenting on this pos...The only reason I'm not commenting on this posts is because I have nothing to say about. Great job ;)<br /><br />PD: In spain would be impossible an article like this. There is SO MANY "Millius' Conan" and "Savage sword" fans with no interest at all on the work of Robert E. Howard...Kikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15070254713050025760noreply@blogger.com