... where Conan rides off into the sunset with a bucket of gold under one arm and a scantily-clad female under the other at the end of every story! Except I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that either, because, just like The Witcher, it’s just escapist fiction after all, and if that makes me immature and misogynist, well my girlfirend of 8 years doesn’t seem to mind!
- "manveruppd" doesn't exactly have perfect recall when it comes to the Conan stories
Personally I saw it as a more clever take on Conan-esque fantasy, so I saw the girl cards as just goofy and over-the-top silliness, not intended to be taken seriously...
- "invisiblejesus" apparently doesn't think Conan-esque fantasy can be clever
From this discussion on the misogynistic elements in The Witcher. For those not in the know, one of the miniature storylines in The Witcher is that, due to his bizarre racial makeup, Geralt of Rivia happens to be both sterile, and free of any sort of sexually-transmitted disease, making him ideal for girls of a pre-industrial world to get their rocks off without having to worry. Somehow, people translate it as either "positive discrimination" as it turns Geralt himself into a sex object instead of the girls (which it surely doesn't come across as in the game, where every girl you get it on with has a card to collect), or it's a parody of that sort of thing in "adolescent wish-fulfillment fantasies like Conan."
If you have sex with Morenn in The Witcher, you get this cool card. You can collect a whole set. Gotta catch 'em all! I fail to see how this is any better than the "Maidens" you could rescue in Nihilistic's Conan, frankly, and at least then they're not reduced to freaking collectible cards.
Yeah... no.
First of all, let's look at that "Conan rides off into the sunset with a bucket of gold under one arm and a scantily-clad female under the other at the end of every story!" First of all, that particular description doesn't fit a single Robert E. Howard Conan story I can think of (be it bucket of gold, a girl under his arm, whatnot.) Let's assume that everything is made more abstract, that "ride off into the sunset" means he leaves whatever current situation he finds himself in in a heroic manner, "bucket of gold" can be translated to treasure or similar reward, and that the scantily-clad female is destined for intimacy with the Cimmerian. Does that match up?
"The Phoenix on the Sword."
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? No
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? No
Conan is still in his current situation as King at the end of the story, there is no treasure to get, and there is no girl to get with.
"The Scarlet Citadel"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? No
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? No
Conan is still in his current situation as King at the end of the story, there is no treasure to get, and there is no girl to get with.
"The Tower of the Elephant"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? No
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? No
Conan is staring dumbfounded by the ruins of the Elephant Tower at the end of the story, he doesn't get the treasure he was after, and there is no girl to get with.
"Black Colossus"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? No
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? Yes
Conan is still in his current situation as captain of the guard at the end of the story, there is no treasure to get, but Yasmela jumps on him on Natohk's altar.
"Xuthal of the Dusk"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? Yes
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? Yes
Conan escapes from Xuthal, with no treasure (unless some clothes and a waterskin count), and it's heavily implied he and Natala are engages in some sort of relationship. Notably, he doesn't leave Xuthal with Natala under one arm, but takes her hand, in a gesture of gentleness rare for him.
"The Pool of the Black One"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? Yes
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? Yes
Conan has become captain of the Wastrel, there is no treasure to get, and he has Sancha.
"Rogues in the House"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? Yes
Does Conan get the treasure? Yes
Does Conan get with a girl? No
Conan leaves the city with Murillo's pay, but he doesn't have a girl in tow.
"Iron Shadows in the Moon"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? Yes
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? Yes
Conan is captain of the Red Brotherhood ship, there is no treasure to get, and he promises to make Olivia "Queen of the Blue Sea."
"Queen of the Black Coast"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? No
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? No
Conan ends the story pensive and alone on a beach, watching a burning ship carrying the treasure of the Winged One and his greatest love go out to sea and eternal rest.
"The Devil in Iron"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? Yes
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? Yes
Conan leaves triumphantly, albeit without the phantom treasure of Dagonia, with Octavia in tow.
"The People of the Black Circle
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? Yes
Does Conan get the treasure? Sort of
Does Conan get with a girl? No
Conan rides off with his Afghuli horde, without any ransom for the Devi (though it is promised) and without a girl in arm.
"A Witch Shall Be Born"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? No
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? No
Conan is still captain of the guard at the end of the story, he doesn't get any treasure, and he doesn't get a girl.
"The Servants of Bit-Yakin"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? Yes
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? Yes
Conan rides for Punt with Muriela to scam the poor Puntans with an Ivory Goddess scam, but he let the priceless Teeth of Gwahlur fall into the blackness so he could save Muriela.
"Beyond the Black River"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? No
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? No
Conan is still a Border Runner, there's no treasure, and there's no girl.
"The Man-Eaters of Zamboula"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? Yes
Does Conan get the treasure? Yes
Does Conan get with a girl? No
Conan rides off to Ophir to barter the Star of Khorala to its queen, but he rejects Nafertari's offer of carnal reward.
The Hour of the Dragon
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? No
Does Conan get the treasure? Sort of
Does Conan get with a girl? Sort of
Conan is still king at the end of the story, the treasure already technically belonged to him, and he promised to come back for Zenobia at the story's end.
"Red Nails"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? Yes
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? Yes
Conan leaves Xuchotl without any of the treasures of that accursed place, while Valeria has finally decided him to be worthy of her affections.
"The Frost-Giant's Daughter"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? No
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? No
Conan is still with the AEsir, he doesn't get any treasure, and he doesn't get with a girl.
"The God in the Bowl"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? Yes
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? No
"The Vale of Lost Women"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? No
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? No
Conan is still War Chief of the Bamulas, there is no treasure, and he sends Livia back home to Ophir, rejecting her offer of carnal reward. (That's twice Conan refuses to take a woman offering herself to him, three if you count his reluctance with Yasmela)
"The Black Stranger"
Does Conan ride off into the sunset? Yes
Does Conan get the treasure? No
Does Conan get with a girl? No
Conan plans to raid the seven seas, but he gives away his treasure to Belesa, who he plans to leave at Zingara unmolested.
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So, out of 21 completed stories, 8 have none of the prerequisites, 3 have only one, and 10 have two (1 with 1 "sort of," 1 with 2). 11 have Conan leaving his current situation, 4 have him get the treasure (2 of them offscreen), 8 have Conan getting the girl (1 offscreen). Only 1 has Conan with both the treasure and the girl, and even then, it doesn't truly count since (a) Conan's technically getting the treasure that was stolen from his people, and (b) we don't actually see Conan getting the girl he plans to make his wife. (If I'm messed up in my calculations, sorry, maths isn't my strong point at the best of times, but I can't see myself being particularly far off the mark.)
So much for that argument. Next, how exactly is having a story end with the hero carting off treasure and a girl "immature"? The implication is that such a situation only happens in the fevered imaginations of teens with arrested-development. The fact is, throughout all of history men have treated women as the spoils of war: the sacking of cities had the plunderers make off with women as well as treasures, female slaves were a bartering tool of civilization, even the daughters of kings were bargaining chips in the game of thrones. Saying that Conan is immature simply because he claims a woman is showing a painfully naive view of history. Now, such situations can be portrayed in an immatural manner, but that doesn't reflect on it, any more than a war film portraying WW2 as all fun and games doesn't make the conflict "fun and games."
What's most hilarious is that Conan is, by far, more egalitarian than most real people in history would've been. He never took a woman by force, so he says, and Cimmerians aren't known for being good liars. Cimmerian women occupy a higher level than most of the civilized lands: indeed, part of Conan's seemingly disdainful treatment of women (only disdainful to soft modern minds, for compared to other men of the age, he was a rampant feminist) is because they don't measure up to the Cimmerian and AEsir women he's known. And all this without addressing the women themselves, who frequently save Conan's own skin in many stories, as well as showing a good deal of backbone. I haven't even gotten to Valeria, Belit, Zenobia, Zelata and others, who make The Witcher's strongest heroines look like Anna Valarious.
As for Howard himself, please. He wrote "Sword Woman." That alone counteracts any sexist treatment of women in his stories, even without bringing in the other Dark Agnes stories, "Red Nails," "The Shadow of the Vulture," "Swords of the Northern Sea," even "The Isle of Pirate's Doom." The "Conan was sexist" nonsense is mostly peddled by people who have either never read the stories, confused Howard with pastiche, or have read the stories, but not actually paid any attention. To borrow a Tompkinsism, "you can lead a horse's ass to water, but you can't make him drink."
So can we stop with this "Conan/Howard was misogynistic" nonsense please?
EDIT: Oh joy, another numskull:
I know why I love the Conan comics so much, here is the equation: 1) Conan travels and slays 2) He meets a beautiful woman who is in some sort of danger 3) Conan slays the crap out of everyone and protects/saves her 4) They make sweet, powerful, sweaty Cimmerian love 5) Conan travels and slays again.I get the feeling this chap is going to be sorely disappointed by the many Conan stories that don't have the "Conan equation."
I've never heard of the Witcher and have no desire to finding out more.
ReplyDeleteI am noticing a pattern in your formula's though-all my favorites yarns are a triple NO-or at least nearly so-(Hour of the Dragon and Black Stranger), just something to think on for my own writings.
I find that the concept of " Misogyny " in fantasy and its seeming all pervasiveness is an invention of the reader..
ReplyDeleteIn order to be labeled a misogynist, it really takes nothing more than to be a male in fiction. (or real life for that matter).
I actually had some one tell me that Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series was too misogynistic for their tastes.. Which if you've read any of those books you will realize how ridiculous that is.. in that men in his world are for all intents and purposes 2nd class citizens due to the stigma that they Might be able to channel and are therefor going to go mad and kill everyone..
Personally I found that to be a not so cunning variation of " All men abuse women its just a matter of time" trope that so many seem to like to trot out..
Strange that "The Witcher" books by Andrzej Sapkowski, written over the 80s and 90s, are very much the opposite of misogynistic--featuring very strong female characters and often inverting common fantasy sterotypes. I highly recommend Sapkowski's work, especially the early short stories (unfortunately, only one of the two short story collections have been translated into English). Back when crap fantasy trilogies dominated American markets (i.e. The Terry Brooks era) Sapkowski was writing humurous, brutal and often fairly deep S&S. I've often wanted to compare Polish fantasy's development over time to that of the UK and US, since Poland has a long tradition of fantasy fiction (starting back in the 1880s; Grabinski's horror predates Lovecraft!) and wasn't nearly as influenced by LOTR as western markets.
ReplyDeleteDavid, I should point out that The Witcher does have fairly decent qualities. It's a great brawler, and there's a lot of mature themes like racism, drug abuse, existentialism and whatnot. The sex-card-collecting is just one minor, incidental subplot that has no effect on the rest of the narrative, and you can happily go through the game without going all pimp. It still kind of makes me shake my head, though.
ReplyDeleteLagomorph, I think it's mostly a case of dissonance between modern values and ancient ones. People seem to find it difficult to believe that women were considered anything but one an equal status as men, just as they think no good people could have ever had slaves.
Taran, I haven't read the books, however, there are one or two pretty strong females in the game. Triss was a fairly strong example, and I liked Shani. It's infuriating that The Witcher gets an intelligent, intellectual (for the most part) game, while Conan gets the God of War clone. Urgh.
I played the Witcher game, but I didn't like the constant mouse clicking to get the attacks to go off.. Other than that I agree with you that it was rather deep as far games go.
ReplyDeleteI actually liked Conan of War though.. I thought Ron Perlman was rather good as Conan.. But I wish that it had of been an adaption of some of the stories.. no one can tell me that Conan's climbing of the Elephant Tower wouldn't have made excellent Prince of Persia style game play..
And yeah I agree with you about the modern values thing.. People seem to lack the ability to put practically anything in Context.. But then we also live in a world where we inflict economic philosophies on History.
The Witcher deserved a respectful video game adaptation to rectify the terrible, terrible film. Michal Szczerbic, the screenwriter (who worked on Schindler's List and the Pianist in different positions, fer cripes sake!) pulled a Milius, but the director didn't really have the chops to pull it off, leading to an utter abortion of cinema. Szczerbic actually had his name removed from the credits after disagreements with the director. The thing is, neither of them gave a hoot about adapting Sapkowski, even though he already had LEGIONS OF FANS in Eastern Europe. Sounds a lot like how Howard often gets treated, to me.
ReplyDeleteNo distributor outside of Poland wanted to touch that movie with a ten-foot pole.
Al, you really need to consolidate all your work and publish an REH primer, or something. We could post a PDF of it up on The Cimmerian and title it, "Read this before commenting on REH's purported misogyny, racism, and formulaic writing, idiots."
ReplyDeleteLagomorph, I found Witcher's combo system a nice diversion, personally, preferable to the one-click system of most Bioware/Obsidian style RPGs. I can see why others wouldn't, though.
ReplyDeleteConan of War was a fair game, but it resolutely refused to be anything other than the mindless brawler it was. That's all well and good, I like a good slice-em-up as much as the next guy, but Conan offers so much more than the carnal desires. The whole "Conan is just blood, sex and escapism" is a pet peeve of mine, and it bugs me that they never bothered to address that. It isn't as though adding some of the barbarism vs civilization/tragic heroism/cosmic horror would've taken away from the blood and boobs.
Taran, isn't that always the way with film adaptations? Infuriating sometimes.
Brian, I might well do that. "The Idiot's Guide To Robert E. Howard" or something. Maybe then people would shut up.
I think that would be helpful, Especially if it was put up on the main Conan.com site... and especially with the new movie coming out..
ReplyDeleteThe Witcher is brilliant, the books are wonderful. Thankfully in German there are now 5 books about Geralt, because of the success the game had in Germany.
ReplyDelete