As a follow-up to my Tolkien post, I want to give props to sword-brother Brian Murphy. Brian's talking about the Argonath of Modern Fantasy, J.R.R. Tolkien and Robert E. Howard, over at Black Gate, and he mentions the seminal Tompkins essay. A really excellent, heartfelt overview that chimes with my own thoughts. Good on ya, Brian!
As an aside, be sure to check the comments section, where Scott Taylor makes the... interesting suggestion that Minas Rowling somehow topples Barad-Howard and Tolkiengard in terms of impact on fantasy fiction. Erm, okay.
Thanks for the props, Al.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that first comment was a doozy, and also very premature. Who knows, Rowling may one day be in that conversation (full disclosure: I've only read her first book and thought it was okay at best), but please, let's give it a little critical distance, say 20-30 years minimum. Will Rowling still be read 75 years from now like Howard? Time will tell, but we need time.
I don't want to dismiss Rowling too quickly, but I can't help wondering if she'll even last another decade. Seems like the people that were banging her drum the loudest just a couple of years ago have already started moving on...I can't count the number of times I've recently heard some variation of "Harry Potter was cool at the time but now I'm reading [insert author]!"
ReplyDeleteThanks for the props, Al.
ReplyDeleteNot at all!
Yeah, that first comment was a doozy, and also very premature. Who knows, Rowling may one day be in that conversation (full disclosure: I've only read her first book and thought it was okay at best), but please, let's give it a little critical distance, say 20-30 years minimum. Will Rowling still be read 75 years from now like Howard? Time will tell, but we need time.
Rowling and Potter are obviously a massive hit right now, but there's no guarantee it'll last. Will it prove to be this generation's Lord of the Rings, or its Jules de Grandin?
I don't want to dismiss Rowling too quickly, but I can't help wondering if she'll even last another decade. Seems like the people that were banging her drum the loudest just a couple of years ago have already started moving on...I can't count the number of times I've recently heard some variation of "Harry Potter was cool at the time but now I'm reading [insert author]!"
The problem with Rowling is HP is all she has. We've seen nothing else from her, and HP is enough to keep her sitting pretty. As soon as she decides she wants another solid gold castle, it's more likely she'll just return to HP than go onto another series.
I think Rowling will last the decades to come, even if HP is all she comes out with. The kids who grew up with it, will no doubt read it to their kids etc.
ReplyDeleteI don't think she'll ever be one of the pillars of fantasy writing though. There was nothing in there that hadn't been done before, she filled a gap in the market and it worked that was all.
Actually, I can't say I agree with this sort of reductionism. I love Tolkien and Howard's works, but I don't believe that they "spawned" genres that were not already a long time in development. Dismissing Lord Dunsany or William Morris as "distant rumbles", in my mind, does the history of fantasy a disservice, especially when you rule out the fantasies coming out of eastern Europe. Influential and important, yes, but not origins.
ReplyDeleteIt also leads to stuff like this (unfortunately, the original post is lost to internet history, but it seems I saved it back in my days at the Tolkien Forum):
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/archive/index.php/t-17314.html
I think Rowling will last the decades to come, even if HP is all she comes out with. The kids who grew up with it, will no doubt read it to their kids etc.
ReplyDeleteOh, undoubtedly: I just hope people don't mistake sales for quality.
Actually, I can't say I agree with this sort of reductionism. I love Tolkien and Howard's works, but I don't believe that they "spawned" genres that were not already a long time in development. Dismissing Lord Dunsany or William Morris as "distant rumbles", in my mind, does the history of fantasy a disservice, especially when you rule out the fantasies coming out of eastern Europe. Influential and important, yes, but not origins.
My personal thoughts on Dunsany & Morris are that they're the foundations upon which the towers of Tolkien & Howard are built, upon the mountain of oral tradition and medieval/renaissance texts.
I certainly don't believe Brian was dismissing Dunsany et al as "distant rumblings," so much as saying that Sword-and-Sorcery and Heroic Fantasy are distinct from earlier traditions. Or, to continue the sculpting metaphor, Dunsany et al are the mighty rock from which the towers were hewn. (So as not to imply that Dunsany needed "refining" or some such, I hasten to add that the beauty of nature is in itself untouchable by the hand of man: all men can do is create their own art, not improve or surpass it.)
Or something. Ask Brian about it over at The Silver Key, I'm sure he'd love to discuss the relativity of classic fantasy to the modern genre.
It also leads to stuff like this (unfortunately, the original post is lost to internet history, but it seems I saved it back in my days at the Tolkien Forum):
I remember reading that a long time ago and scratching my head, even though it was during my "anti-Tolkien" phase (I was young and stupid). Even then, I remembered that there was plenty of blood-and-thunder in The Lord of the Rings. Might take a trip to the way-back machine and discuss that article.
Taran: To reiterate and add to what Al said, my intent with this essay was not to demean authors like Lord Dunsany or William Morris or E.R. Eddison (whose work I greatly admire, and still think stands up as some of the best ever done in the fantasy genre, and criminally under-read to boot), only to say that Tolkien and Howard as the next on the scene forged high fantasy and swords and sorcery as the sub-genres we know today.
ReplyDeleteHeroic fantasy of course existed before Tolkien and Howard, and likely would have continued without them, but they are (in my opinion) its finest practitioners. Morris, Dunsany, MacDonald, et. al, were certainly first, and seminal influences, but while being first is noteworthy and of historic import it does not always equal best. Which is why in my opinion one of the reasons why a work like The Well at the World's End is not a household name, while The Lord of the Rings is.
I was actually hoping to be the opposite of reductionist and point out some of the similiarites and common ground between these two authors; creating division was not my intent.
I assumed it wasn't intentional, but I tend to be weary (perhaps from my history background) of searches for origins. Morris, Dunsany, MacDonald, Grabinski wrote out of existing traditions; just like science fiction doesn't have any definitive first book to look back to (I've seen arguments over this that stretch into monotony). My reaction comes from my own frustration in how often Tolkien, or Tolkien/Howard, are said to "create" fantasy, and everything afterwards is just imitation. I'm sorry I projected these thoughts on your own post.
ReplyDelete(Aside: The only time I've really seen "first" apply uncontested was to the gothic and "The Castle of Ortanto", but even then, there's been arguments)
And yes, Taranaich, this or the Silver Key are the best place for discussion. The colour of comments on Black Gate often scare the crap out of me (This article a case in point).
My reaction comes from my own frustration in how often Tolkien, or Tolkien/Howard, are said to "create" fantasy, and everything afterwards is just imitation. I'm sorry I projected these thoughts on your own post.
ReplyDeleteIt's a frustration you, me and I'd dare say Brian all share. I know Brian's a much bigger fantasy reader than I am, so he definitely knows where you're coming from.
I'd say when push comes to shove, there are no originators, but codifiers. Howard may or may not have created Sword-and-Sorcery, but he defined it for generations. Same with Tolkien: he might not have been the first to do an epic fantasy featuring grand wars and struggles between disparate races on a strange earth, but he created a distinctive model for it.